Tumbling Like Alice (Posts tagged Star Trek the original series)

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See, that’s what the app is perfect for.

Sounds perfect Wahhhh, I don’t wanna
na-nanu
na-nanu

if jim learned abt the vulcan hand thing from a book he'd probably go the next week hyper-aware of spock's hands. he'd chalk it up to a heightened sense of cultural sensitivity, but there's no good way to explain his frustration when a woman almost touches spock's fingers or his odd excitement when spock hands him objects. eventually spock grabs his wrist while they're running to get away from some awful alien creature and the whole time jim thinks he's going to go insane

spirk spock jim captain kirk james t kirk s'chn t'gai spock star trek tos star trek the original series

You know what’s funny. I think Roddenberry accidentally created the greatest love story in Spock and Kirk. The more I look into how he created them and why they are such a unit every creative choice was him creating a metaphor for soulmates or showing the markers of relationships. I’ve run across many accounts of their creation and understanding the creative process I imagine all of them are, to an extent, true.

- Kirk and Spock being a single character broken into 2 (soulmates/call me by your name phenomenon)

- allowing those parts of the self to commune and contemplate and react to each other in an intimate way because there is automatically an intimacy between two halfs of the one whole. They literally complete each other.

- kirk representing the passion and Spock the logic (you kind of see this a bit in relationships sometimes when one person is like the loud one and the other one is like the one that plans haha it seems like a wishy washy point but I believe it stands)

- in response to Spock’s popularity (in my belief particularly because he reflected humanities struggle with emotion, emotional acceptance/ honesty and truth) Gene asked Issac Asimov how to ensure Kirk didn’t fall into the background and Asimov responded “make them a team so when people think of Spock they think of Kirk”. Good relationships are like a team of 2. When you think of Spock you think immediately of kirk. No other person or thing really comes between them in terms of “what comes first in each other’s lives” except maybe the ship but that is something they both share/cherish and care for and would also both sacrifice for each other.

- gene had wanted to include a gay relationship on screen but assumed he would be taken off air and while his reactions to the idea of Kirk and Spock being together have varied it’s never been a definitive no absolutely not. As we know there’s even been a few times where he’s added nods to the possibility with the invention of Th'y'la and his admission that their love for each other was sufficient for sexual intimacy.

Less salient points in support of Spock and Kirk as an actual real thing

- this is obviously a side point not really about thier creation but paramount gave the thumbs up to the most homoerotic subtext in the star trek pulp series. Did they say it was not canon? Yes. But did they approve Spock giving Kirk a naked mind meld that made Kirk melt into him? Yes. Did they approve a poem that is strongly suggested is written by Spock where his love for his captain is written on his heart? Yes. Did they give a thumbs up to Spock and Kirk rolling around in the grass while Spock is in heat? Yes. COME ON.

- there’s a lot of interpretations of kirks sexuality but for me the first time I saw it, without any context of spirk and the broader star trek lore, I assumed Kirk was a very sexual person and that he was not bound by gender/race/alien type. The impression was very much ‘if they’re compatible then I’m down". He’s a very touch based person. He’s cheeky to the extent that it really comes off as flirty with most people. I wanna say he dresses provocatively but it’s not his fault the uniforms fit him like th-(not relevant). Do I think he’s a womanizer? No. Do I think he’s a sexual pan/bi guy that doesn’t go wanting? Yes.

Anyway in conclusion greatest accidental and legitimate love story.

spirk spock s'chn t'gai spock kirk jim kirk james t kirk captain kirk the premise star trek star trek the original series star trek tos myart
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WIP and an AU speed run Slow Burn

So in my mind I have this slow burn that I don’t think I’ll write cause I don’t have the stamina buttttt I will make art about it and give you the outline here:

Kirk captures a Vulcan - who he believes to be a member of an invading force coming to take his people’s lands. The Vulcan refuses to speak and so Kirk is charged with guarding this Vulcan while his leader, Pike, decides what to do with him. Though at first Kirk believes Spock has bewitched him as he finds him to be quite beautiful, and he tells him this, McCoy clarifies that vulcans can only bewitch through touch.

So there’s some fun ‘as feelings develop wanting to touch but not touching’ stuff and some instances of Kirk being protective/caring for spock. Pike eventually discovers that the Vulcan they have caught is the son of the leader of the vulcans - Sarek - and decides to use Spock as a bargaining chip to compel the vulcans to leave. On thier last night before they are supposed to go to meet Sarek Spock finally begins talking and explains a lot of things. He’s like who do you think we are? And Kirks like ‘an invading force from some other land mass’ and after a lot of questions from Spock about Kirks world Spock reveals the vulcans are not from kirks planet, that there are more planets to explore and that the vulcans were not here as an invading force but as a first exercise of exploration. He offers Kirk to go with them and right before kirk is relieved from his guard shift spock tells him that he also finds Kirk to be quite beautiful, referencing their first night hanging together. Anyway there’s some political shenanigans, some on the run shenanigans (I’m kind of still writing it in my mind) obvi they get it on and eventually escape the planet together to explore the galaxy.

Yay! Maybe I’ll add some of the convos to the art and stuff.

kirk captain kirk spock Vulcan Star Trek au Star Trek tos spirk James t kirk Jim kirk Star Trek the original series my art
cardentist
cardentist

I haven’t been in the star trek fandom for very long (I’ve only just started binging the series in the last couple months), so it’s been pretty surprising to find out just how negative the perception of the reboot movies are.

this isn’t coming from the perspective of someone who grew up with the series, so it hit different for me than it might for people with a different relationship to TOS, but I thought it was genuinely clever and Respectful with how it was handled.

To quote leonard nimoy: “Well the alternative timeline gives them license to escape from canon concerns. I can’t see people saying ‘they shouldn’t do that because…’ or ‘that doesn’t tie in to such and such’ because it is a different time and place. Am I right about that?”
[Link]

the entire Premise is that the original series happened as it was presented in TOS, but an event late in Spock’s life caused the creation of a parallel universe in which everyone’s lives were significantly altered through two key changes to the timeline. this gives them the freedom to Both revel in fanservice And explore different facets of the characters and their relationships. 

the destruction of vulcan Vastly impacts the characters and the plot moving forward, and its a detail that a lot of people take issue with. but the emotional impact of sarek admitting Directly to spock that there is value in his humanity, that his feelings Aren’t wrong, that sarek married amanda because he Loved her cannot be understated. you can read all of these things into sarek as he was in the original series, but he Never had an open conversation about these things with spock. this creates a Believable and Rewarding change in their relationship, where we get to see a different facet of them Because of the changes made. and that’s exactly the appeal. showing us pieces of these characters that we never got in TOS that are nevertheless undeniably Them.

everyone is Different yes, but they’re also fundamentally the same people at their core and that matters.


kirk’s personality obviously takes the biggest change, with him experiencing trauma at a young age, losing his father, and having an implied abusive father figure after that point. he has a harsher personality in reaction to harsher conditions, he’s spikier and harder to love. but he’s also still fundamentally a Good person whose willing to risk everything to help people. he still has what made kirk prime a good captain and a good friend.

I’m not gonna say that it’s the most nuanced story in the world, but it explores a version of kirk that was born from even Less fortunate circumstances than kirk prime, exploring a kirk brimming with potential who learned to bite back after he was kicked down. exploring those themes of trauma and loss, of insecurity and growth, and coming to the conclusion that Fundamentally He Is Capable Of Good isn’t a Bad thing. you don’t have to like it, but his growth into a better person is The Point. they deepened his flaws (all of which were present in a less exaggerated form in TOS) To Show That Growth.


and then of course there’s his relationship with spock.

people are totally justified in not liking that they had a rough start to their relationship, I usually don’t like to see that kind of thing in reboots or hollywood adaptations either, but the way people talk about it is just unfair.

Yes kirk and spock and bones have a very strong relationship in TOS, they also already know each other by the time the show starts. to look at them having to learn to get to know and trust each other when they first meet and say that it’s Bad because they were already full on ride or die for each other in the og series is silly. TOS kirk and spock had to meet and fall in love with each other too, it didn’t just happen over night kings.

secondly, the entire point of the first movie is that Even With reality itself being altered to pull them apart they are fundamentally compatible people that are Bound to each other. they meet each other on bad terms because of circumstances outside of their control, and yet they’re still pulled into each other’s orbit and find the other slotting into place next to them as if they always belonged. one of the first things that spock prime says in the movie is “I am and always will be your friend,” spock and jim are Meant for each other and the movie goes out of its way to explain that. which is what makes it so Weird to see people complaining about how they don’t like each other.

it’s a Different relationship, but it’s absolutely no less steeped in yearning or queer subtext. 


speaking of queer subtext ! some people are Very unhappy with spock’s relationship with uhura.

first thing I wanna say is that making the argument that they’re doing anything that the original series hasn’t done is just, completely untrue. kirk has fallen in love with more girls in the og series than he knew what to do with, leonard nimoy was a heartthrob in his time (and he deserves it, awooga) and spock reflects that ! Spock usually turns the women who come onto him down (or when he doesn’t it’s because a plant has literally altered his mind), but there are exceptions to even that. all of three of the main boys have plenty of romance subplots, it happens. if that takes the possibility of them being queer off the table for you (which it shouldn’t, m-spec people exist) then I’m sorry to say that TOS is not exempt.

now, I can understand why Specifically This Relationship could rub people the wrong way or being disappointed that they didn’t outright depict kirk and spock as having a relationship (if not in the first movie then in the following ones after they’ve gotten to know each other), but even in that context the way I’ve seen people talk about it comes off as insensitive.

no, the relationship did not come out of nowhere. they considered having spock and uhura date each other in the original show (and you can see signs of this in the earlier episodes, where uhura very obviously flirts with him and they spend time together in their down time) before they decided against it, and spock was originally going to kiss uhura until shatner insisted that he wanted to do it (because it was the first interracial kiss on tv). [Link 1, Link 2, Link 3]

nichelle nichols was asked about this exact thing (spock and uhura’s relationship in the movie), you can read the interview in full here [Link] but I’d like to highlight this paragraph in particular:

“Now, go back to my participation in Star Trek as Uhura and Leonard (Nimoy) as Spock. There was always a connection between Uhura and Spock. It was the early 60’s, so you couldn’t do what you can do now, but if you will remember, Uhura related to Spock. When she saw the captain lost in space out there in her mirror, it was Spock who consoled her when she went screaming out of her room. When Spock needed an expert to help save the ship, you remember that Uhura put something together and related back to him the famous words, “I don’t know if I can do this. I’m afraid.” And Uhura was the only one who could do a spoof on Spock. Remember the song (in “Charlie X”)? Those were the hints, as far as I’m concerned.

the film makers looked at the fact there were Hints for uhura and spock, that they were Interested in exploring an interracial couple for the first time (both before and immediately after interracial couples won the right to legally get married) but Couldn’t because of the circumstances of the times and decided to Make that depiction. you don’t have to Like their relationship just because of that fact, but it’s Incredibly reductive to play down it’s significance as just a No Homo cop out. explicitly queer relationships are not the only progressive or culturally important relationships in fiction.

moreover, if you can’t imagine polyamory in the communist utopian future that’s on you.


moreover, this perception that this was a soulless cash grab is just, unfounded.

leonard nimoy returned to the role as spock for the first time in 16 years (since 1991) and this was Entirely because of the respect they had for nimoy, spock as a character, and the franchise as a whole. 

Lets look at some quotes from nimoy in interviews regarding the film:

Leonard Nimoy: When I first read the script (…) I immediately contacted J.J. and said “I think it is terrific…I think you guys have done a wonderful job. There is still work to be done, but it is very clear that you and your writers know what you are doing and you know how to do this movie and know what it should be about….and I am very interested.” Then as time went by we worked things out with Paramount, but the most important things were J.J. and the script. (…) I am very pleased about that and I am very comfortable with where this is going. I think the writers have done a terrific job. They have a real sense of the characters and the heart of Star Trek and what it is really all about.

(…)

TrekMovie.com: Now in the case of the new movie you have been retired from acting for years. What was it about this one that made you want to act again and go through the make up again? What was it that made you say ‘I really want to do this?’

Leonard Nimoy: You are right, this is a special situation. First it is Star Trek and so I have to pay attention. I owe that to Star Trek. Second place is that it is J.J. Abrams who I think very highly of, he is a very talented guy. Then came the script and it was very clear that I could make a contribution here. The Spock character that I am playing, the original Spock character, is essential and important to the script. So on the basis of those three elements it was easy to make the decision. So those three things: Star Trek, J.J. Abrams, and an interesting Spock role.

[Link]

Praising the cast playing younger versions of characters from the original 1960s TV series, he [Leonard Nimoy] said: “Let me take the opportunity to say this. Everybody at this table [the cast] are very, very talented and intelligent people.”

“They found their own way to bring that talent and intelligence to this movie, and I think it shows. (…)  When Karl Urban introduced himself as Leonard McCoy and shook hands with Chris Pine, I burst into tears. That performance of his is so moving, so touching and so powerful as Doctor McCoy, that I think D. Kelley would be smiling, and maybe in tears as well.”

“The makers of this film reawakened the passion in me that I had when we made the original film and series. I was put back in touch with what I cared about and liked about Star Trek, and why I enjoyed being involved with Star Trek. So, it was an easy way to come on home.”

“[In this Star Trek] they said things and showed me things, and demonstrated the sensibility that I felt very comfortable with, and I think that shows in the movie. I like it.”

[Link 1, Link 2]


again, you don’t have to like it just because leonard nimoy did, you don’t have to Agree. but the idea that nobody working on the film Cared is provably false. near everyone working on the project was already a fan of the series or were excited to be involved and did their homework. it’s genuinely a Miracle just how much of a labor of love this was, and in my opinion you can feel that through the movie itself. I’d highly recommend looking into interviews and behind the scenes details about the movies. they had a respect not just for the source material, but for leonard nimoy as a person.


there’s definitely more I Could say about this, but it’s 4 am now so I’m gonna shelve it jklfdsa

that said! it’s Fine to not like the movie, not everything is going to be suited to everyone’s taste, but the specific criticisms I’ve seen feel very off base

spirkedbaguette

But that is one issue that we fans have, that the stars don’t: We watched Trek again and again and know almost every detail by heart and that’s why inconsistencies rub us the wrong way.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t have ANY problem with anyone else enjoying the new Trek movies. In fact I’m happy they brought new people into fandom and they’re probably the one reason we get new Trek shows and I’m very thankful for that. But that doesn’t stop me from hating them on the context level.

First of all, they used time travel to create a parallel universe. But that’s not how time travel works in Trek. It has been established that every time travel has effects on the timeline it is coming from. That’s the whole reason for some episodes. So, just saying (off-screen for that matter) ‘Oh, no no, this doesn’t damage the prime timeline. Why? We have no idea, but we just say so’ was… Well, an amateur move. So still lacking proper explanation, some fans (including me) still feel they have erased all of existing Trek except ENT and nowadays Picard. This could have easily been prevented by just having Spock explain on screen how the addition of red matter opened a rift in the universes that he hadn’t forseen and how he therefore screwed up more than anticipated. But they didn’t do that, and then got pissed off when fans pointed that out. That just hurts, because it was a mistake that could have easily been avoided.

Then off to Kirk. Well, he’s a jackass in every iteration, so not much of a problem here. Except that it ignores that Prime Kirk also had a traumatic background. Seeing three thousand people being murdered and almost starving to death isn’t easy either. So… It feels like they’re playing ‘which trauma is “worth” more’. But… That’s the least of my problems.


And off to Spuhura. The greatest issue I have here is that creating Spuhura BEFORE the destruction of Vulcan makes Spock a cheating arsehole. He is engaged, for heaven’s sake. And they knew that fans know that. So again, they could have found an explanation how this doesn’t make him a despicable swine, but they didn’t. They didn’t care that they hurt the character, making him something that would use a trigger warning, because cheating fiancés are a trauma for some. They could’ve just said that T'Pring rejected Spock, that their brains weren’t compatible. Another issue that would have been SO EASY to avoid. They just didn’t think for one second that this would be an issue.


So… I guess my main problem (and maybe those of others as well) isn’t so much the movies themselves. It’s how they simply didn’t think about the issues of consistency that could SO EASILY have not been an issue at all, had they just paid attention to the details.


(Okay, and that the movies don’t have any of the rather utopian, hopeful, pacifist, anti-capitalistic tones that are the core of Trek, doesn’t help either, but… That’s not the zeitgeist and with core Trek stories they wouldn’t have gotten an audience, so that’s forgivable.)


But in the end… Well, what matters most is that other people enjoy those movies and that those people (you ❤️) give new life to Trek and… I guess in the end that’s worth all the pain that the new movies (or mainly 2009) caused.

cardentist

this post was more about dispelling specific criticisms that I’ve been seeing repeated in the tags rather than insisting that people Should like the movies. it’s all down to personal taste at the end of the day, and the tone of the movie is just very different from the tone of TOS. so it’s totally understandable to not like it !

that said, there are some points here that I still don’t agree with !

firstly, leonard nimoy was given free reign to edit the script, and in fact he talks repeatedly in interviews about how he was hooked into film immediately By the script. you can argue why you specifically do not like it, but you can’t say that it happened because the people making it weren’t as familiar with star trek as you were.

again, that’s not to say that you still can’t dislike it, see it as inconsistent, or feel like it pushes too hard on your suspension of disbelief. but I dislike this idea that the movie was made by people who didn’t care for or understand the original series. when you look into it over and over again you’ll see stories of people who’ve been fans since they were little or people excitedly watching TOS on set while they’re mentored for their roles. there was a lot of very clear and obvious passion pouring into this movie and that at least resonated with me as a newer fan.


secondly, you answered your own question didn’t you? spock prime is obviously an old man, and we see that this instance of creating a new universe happened because of new technology that hadn’t existed by the time of TOS. it’s not hard to believe that it’d act differently from other instances of time travel in the show when it happened under different circumstances from any other instance of time travel we’d seen before. I also don’t think it’d make sense to have spock prime explain exactly how and why it worked when it only happened the way that it did because of an accident. spock prime had no way of knowing that it was going to happen and he only arrived just before jim found him, so there really isn’t any way to justify him having more information about what happened than he does in the movie.

again, you can still not Like that, but I don’t think it constitutes a mistake on the part of the filmmakers. especially not when compared to inconsistencies present in TOS.


and you can, feel that way about kirk. I can’t say that you’re not allowed to make that interpretation. but I personally don’t see that supported by the movie. the movie does not say “kirk experienced trauma so now he’s an asshole” (which I think would be a very unfavorable presentation of trauma), it says “kirk lost an important support system he would’ve had otherwise and lashed out when they were replaced by an abuser.”
it’s not about which version of kirk “had it worse,” it’s about how strong support systems are important and how kids react to abuse from people who they should be able to trust. at least that’s how I read it anyways!


and that’s, a very strong reaction!
I hate to think what you consider of fans who ship spock and kirk Before spock’s pon farr.

and I mean, you’re allowed to think of spock as cheating swine, but you’re vastly overlooking the fact that spock and t’pring were an arranged marriage as kids. they weren’t in love with each other, Very Obviously So. spock had seriously considered just dying over his marriage with t’pring in TOS. and t’pring arranged for spock to murder kirk just so she could marry her boyfriend (who she was Actually in love with). and then of course we have the fact that spock had worked with pike for at least 11 years before he worked with kirk on the enterprise, which I’m going to guess is at least 11 years that he’d never so much as spoken to t’pring. going strictly off of TOS it seems clear to me that while they were indeed engaged neither of them actually Knew let alone Liked each other.

moreover, we have the detail of spock’s pon farr starting much later than it would have for other vulcans, meaning he’d thought that it wasn’t going to happen for him at all. vulcans start pon farr at 18, spock was clearly older than that in the movies. it wouldn’t at all be a stretch to say that spock felt comfortable dating Because he didn’t think his call to marry t’pring would ever come.

and of course spock’s pon farr would Actually start when he was much older, this was a young adult spock testing the waters for probably the first time (considering the racism on vulcan probably wasn’t very conductive to romance).

all of that said, the comparison to a Real marriage is pretty unfounded. they were never in love, the marriage was arranged when they were children, neither of them actually Wanted the marriage, and as far as they knew the marriage was never going to actually come. t’pring found someone else who she loved in that time, so why is it a moral issue for spock to do the same?

so again, it’s okay if you don’t like it, but I don’t see it as the movie not taking the original show into account. spock prime didn’t tell anyone about t’pring or pon farr until he was literally dying, so if anything it’d be out of character For Him to talk about her in the movie.


what I Will definitely agree to is the fact that the pacing and tone of the movies (Especially the first one) hit Very differently from the original show. the fast pace was obviously in service of the plot and characterization (having backstory for kirk and spock on top of the main plot of the movie), which I was personally very impressed by. but that’s still down to taste ! I think it’s fair to say that they did what they were going for Extremely well, but that it doesn’t matter how well they accomplished it if that tone and pacing doesn’t vibe with you. so, say la vie!


all of that said, here’s one inaccuracy that I can actually correct with some authority fjaskld.
I didn’t get into star trek through the movies, I binged TOS with a friend because it was a comfort series for them (they watched it with their dad as a kid, and they saw the movies in theaters with him too !), and well People Need Comfort In These Trying Times. I watched the movies after I’d seen most of TOS, which is actually part of why I really enjoyed them. there were a Ton of details that were either direct references to or direct parallels to TOS! even in the later movies :>

though I do definitely agree, the movies breathed a lot of new life into the fandom (just digging through content pre and post 2009 makes that clear), which is a wonderful thing to be sure !


all of that said, you’re completely valid even if you see the movies as trash garbage. I just don’t agree with a lot of the common criticisms for the movie.

seraph5

I tend to lean on the side of @cardentist here. The first Trek I ever saw was the 2009 Star Trek which ultimately launched me into TOS and then later next gen and later still ds9, disco and now voyager. I returned to 2009 Star Trek recently and was actually blown away how respectful, inventive and well made it was. I feel like I often see people weighing the 2 hr movie against the nearly 66 hour TOS or even the broader series as a whole.

Logistically they had a fraction of time to achieve something that spoke to an enormous history and they did it brilliantly. In choosing to create a different timeline they could have done anything with the characters, gone super awol and created a real camel but in spite of giving themselves a dangerous amount of rope they honored the wider universe in, in my opinion, as many ways as they could. It was a tight story with impressive stakes, star trek fights, lovely callbacks and restrained divergences.

As a huge spirk fan I am somewhat disappointed they didn’t take a spirk route but once again I come back to a limit of time. Having Spock and Uhura together was a damn sight better than having Kirk and Uhura together which would have been the pedestrian line to draw. Having Kirk and Spock be the love interest in a meaningful way would have meant that it would have had to have been integral to if not the main plot and it wasnt a romance or a romantic movie.

I understand having issues with it or not liking the liberties they took with it but to me it honestly seems like essentially the best they could have done and in doing it they did breathe life back into the franchise.

I understand not liking the movies due to taste but I also don’t agree with most of the common critiques of the movie.

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Spock roused from his sleep with the feeling of a gentle palm brushing against his forehead. He took in the dishevelled and beaten sight of his Captain.

“Captain” he whispered voice rough “You are fatigued”

“Don’t fret” Jim said warmly “there’s a break in the fighting so I’ll rest a moment. How’s the stomach?”

Spock hesitated for before replying

“Intact”

“Thought it might have hit one of your hearts. For a moment I-” the words died in his throat and Spock felt the hand by his side tense into a fist “I’m glad it missed”

“The crew will be here soon. I’d tell you it’s going to be ok but I’m worried that you might strain something explaining the lack of data to back that statement up” he said and in his face Spock read something peculiar. He assumed it was delirium but here, in the height of their peril, Jim’s face seemed to glow with adoration.

“Jim” he hushed.

“Yes?”

“It is quite illogical” Spock spoke the words he somehow knew Jim wanted to hear. Jim looked like something had snapped inside him. He leaned forward and kissed Spock’s brow.

“Rest” He said “that’s an order, Mister”

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